Thus you must disobey the minister. The same is true in every realm, we don’t say, “Well, our nation will never be 100% Christian, so why bother praying for a greater expression of the knowledge of God in America. Z says: Don, you said that we submit to the civil magistrate and church elder the same way. Westcott & Hort Magic Marker Binge — [16], Hooker defended the calling of synods by magistrates, and attended a convention of ministers in Boston whose purpose was to defend Congregationalism.

Throwing out Bible verses out of context actually does more harm than good most of the time. Please tell me you don’t really believe that either. It was a gracious blessing to have your sins forgiven, BUT the sacrifices had to be repeated daily! There is often a whole set of ‘unspoken’, ‘unregulated’, certainly not illegal, behaviors and practices that determine one’s relative success or failure in an industry. and while I generally appreciate the conclusions they come to, I don’t always agree with how they got there hermenuetically or even exegetically? Jeff, I understand the standard Reformed teaching on creation-fall-redemption. Todd: Do you believe in the free offer of the gospel and that God has a general, temporary love for the non-elect? Sheesh. Before my own dad went off the deep end, some of my favorite times with him were spent replacing cast-iron waste lines in the crawl spaces beneath various homes in Central Oregon, or burning up his solder with his acetylene torch in mechanical rooms here i Southern California. But I can easily see how your nonsense that Bob’s business should conform to the Bible leads to Bob thinking his business is redemptive leads to the nonsense about Christian enterprise and building the kingdom through righteous dealings. Scripture, as it relates to Supernatural, or divine law (as opposed to when it clarifies something in the moral law), on the other hand establishes the way of salvation, our Supernatural end. As I said, I do not go so far as to say that math can only be taught in a Christian school, but the church as a community must teach its children the presuppositional context for all subjects and learning. That’s not my culture and I can’t defend it effectively. Isn’t this based on our works, or lack thereof? But the Bible carries more weight and authority than our confession, according to our confession! It was the Roman way of making sport of their death. You find that dubious? Don, thanks.

When it comes to education, what CVT and those who affirm these sorts of statements really end up doing in a glorified way is prop up a Christian environment (which is really a form of Christian culture). So we’re not talking about grand theories of Christian plumbing.

Noah’s whole family was saved from the flood becasue of the righteousness of Noah, a type of Christ, no? If we completely ignore the gay agenda a small (2-3%) of the population will be gay. The church is put in its place in neo-Calvinism as proclaimer of the gospel, minister of the sacraments, keeper of the keys, guardian of the faith once given to the saints. My point was that whille you insist that there are, the Confession says there aren’t. But the hiccup for neo-Calvinists comes when they insist that Christians must have biblical warrant or use the lens of Scripture for all that they do. So far, you haven’t shown that you actually know what Reformed churches do or believe. Hart: Anyway, if Christ told us to pray in our closets, not to make a bid deal of our alms, not to call attention to our fasting, why should Christians “show off” their faith in all that they do? Or perhaps I’m just not seeing how your point relates. If it’s not very good as is then what keeps redemptive gloss from being applied? He focused on preparation for heaven and following the moralist character.[17]. RS: I think the quickest way would be to ” have to have you explain what YOU mean by a free offer and then the free offer of the Gospel. And Sainthood only comes after receiving the title of “servant of God”, the title of “Blessed” (which requires proof of miracle while alive), and after the proof of a miracle carried out after the title of “Blessed” was bestowed…all which must take place at least five years after death! RS: Yes, it does ring a bell.

If that is so, and if Christians have one faith, one baptism, one Lord, how could Christians ever vote for different candidates, parties, policies or legislation? John T and Doug S: We look to Scripture first as the final court of appeal! Skip to content. Me: I think we are going off on a different tangent by debating the fine points of submitting to the civil magistrate and church elder the same way. Luther doesn’t write analytical theology. Terry – ” I’m not asking the church to do other stuff”. We have a member of our church who is a partner in a Big 4 accounting firm. DVD claims that the whole creation order was temporary and was only to last until the probation was complete. I’m all for fun, but when helping others grow in grace and knowledge of Christ it seems quite unwise. The rub, as I see it, is that theonomy calls certain sins, crimes, because God said they were crimes in the OT. Maybe this will help. The debates between those who hold to a free offer and those who do not have been around for awhile and have been decided upon.

Actually Jeff, that is the way the world works. This is the Kuyperian nose under the learning tent which leads to assigning the Bible in trigonometry classes. You’d have an easier time saying that Christians shouldn’t lie. This is no ‘saving’ love or goodness but a temporal or ‘common’ provision in distinction from the redemptive provision bestowed upon his children in Christ(seed of the woman).

My son made a clean block on one of the girls and they made him apologize.

Why, I’ve heard Dr. K. recommend Bach as a great Christian musician. D.G. . That sounds more like Wesleyan perfectionism than like Edwards, or any other form of Reformed Christianity, for that matter.

This is false. Doug S, I don’t get the sense that you’ve interacted with the “merit” side of the argument very much. If this is what redemption is, it is quite logical to conclude that the church is important for the Christian life but not precisely where the main action lies.

JRC meant: On the other hand, teenagers don’t have prior baggage. Neo-Calvinism wants to speak of creation re-gained, which explains why it thinks there is such a thing as redeemed math. And yet, you think you have arrived at some kind of insight about the visible church. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your account. And let me add that I am not talking about trying to “transform the culture.” That is way above my pay grade. You want to understand new covenant baptism? But I have to stand by what I said, Don has stated “more than once” that he read DVD’s book some time ago and that he took copious notes. Repentance is a qualifiation, so to speak. I either pull out my NRA card or I point out that my 5’2″ niece outshot two captains at the Fort Leonard Wood rifle range when one of them was stupid enough to tell her that he didn’t think women should be soldiers. Under that government, citizens are encouraged to do whatever it takes, as long as it is not amoral, to make a profit because making a profit is good for the common world by sustaining economic order and peace. I maintain that God’s promise to Noah has reference to to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator in that God is promising to preserve the “seed of the woman” and the temporal world as the altar upon which the seed will be offered as an atoning sacrifice to God. D.G. Let’s pray, “Thy kingdom come” in faith and watch God work in our midst. Isn’t that true? Okay, fair enough, Dr. Hart. What a blessing being under the gracious provisons of law!! But saying Christians don’t lie is a lie and a walk down Pharisee lane. You agreed that the church as a community must teach its children the presuppositional context for all subjects and learning. For Darryl to come by now and act like Don didn’t even read DVD’s book until he started this debate is not accurate. For that reason, I have not argued (To my recollection) for any kind of Christian plumbing, But only for the scripture to norm the actions of Christians who are plumbers. 3. RS: Or by having the love of Christ in the soul which is the fruit of the Spirit. The debates have been around for a long time, but they the modern view is not exactly the same as the older one. It seems to me, however, that your problem here is that you expect the church to be as broad as Creation.

D. G. Hart: Richard, let’s see if I get this right. Me: Ok, so FULL STOP in your previous post means that God’s covenant with Adam has come to a full stop, and now, in the Noahic covenant He is making His covenant with creation alone?

There has to be more meaning to this reality. Well, this is how I think maybe you view the word “works”. The purest churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. that it therefore is silent about plumbing. Jeff, plus you’ve been using the word “theonomy” positively.

We may be talking past each other here. This is why, as an individual, we constitute the church and should not be identified with the world as the Letter explains. Shakespeare uses it for the point of an arrow. And that’s a good test – anyone who can’t see that quote is poppycock has a whole lot of neo-Cal unlearning to do. Touché on your abortion point! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”. Your rejoinder to Dr. K will be that he is advocating free love! Either can be disciplined for serious unrepentant sin. Don, how does the state regulate the church’s worship and corporate life? John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Are you equating the keys with the kingdom?

However, I want to tighten it up. I just want to see justice in the socio political arena for all nations of the world. But it needs to be someone’s.

I’m a Calvinist, I’m not a fundamentalist, and I’m certainly not any sort of Baptist or Campbellite or Pentecostal who opposes a studied ministry and wants to see part-time semi-educated preachers as being normal or even preferable to “book learning,” but I’ll take any of those errors over the errors of godless liberalism. Home; About; 32.

At the same time we preach a free and world wide gospel; we proclaim a free and world-wide invitation to sinners; we present to every sinner a gracious welcome to Christ, without any preliminary qualification whatsoever. That is the essence of loving God with heart, soul, mind, and strength (of which we are incapable without the work of the Spirit, received by faith). There may be no difference if you agree that no human authority, either church or state, may interpose itself as the mediator of Christ’s mysterious and invisible reign. If we sound the alarm about the gay agenda a small (2-3%) of the population will be gay. Christian schools aren’t usually parochial, I.e. The Spirit came to convict people of sin, righteousness, and judgment. For some reason there was a couple girls in the league. True enough, but the common world (if it acknowledges God at all, as in God bless America), only acknowledges Him as a deistic, creator God. In the case under discussion, the goal is to use honest weights and measures. His posts always end with a pronouncement about a grand overarching system of transformation. But I have something against you; why won’t you EVER deal with the many other Bible verses that exhort us to press on with all diligence and strive for the higher calling found in Christ Jesus?

Here, now, by faith. I say a class in there, but the door had been accidentally locked, so I just stretched outside the room.

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